Our secretary had to make arrangements (many times) to have him picked up from a bar / tavern because of his condition due to drinking. Actually, at the end of the day he was responsible for his choices. Theres also a lot more to the Bible than just one verse. Barbara is correct on the I Cor.5 text. Excellent comment, Linn. Barbra said that R.C. I dont see the comparison as connecting to RC Sproul Jr., except for the coincidence that they are both alcoholics. I wore a wig to school for about 6 months until my hair grew out enough that I wasnt ashamed of how I looked. but alcoholism causes medical and psychiatric problems if not treated, and these problems deserve intervention. God in his infinite mercy intervened and all three children in this home were saved. You chose to believe your wrong assumption about Barbara and me. Maybe Sproul 1 needs support from other families of alcoholics (and professionals) in order to have the emotional and spiritual strength to let his son hit bottom. As it turned out, my depression was more a symptom or a side effect, not the cause of my issues but no doctor I ever saw caught it. Some might call it being accountable. I turned 13 about a month after the wreck and felt like a freak! Drunkenness may involve more of a choice than does alcoholism. So whether or not the church eventually deals with his behavior, his children have a good chance of becoming atheists anyhow. Because I have had my nose rubbed in Sproul Jrs teaching for a couple of decades, I took my own understanding from what she said, quite the opposite of the one you seem to have taken. ADAPTED identifiable applicable scriptural reference application: This is a trustworthy saying ; An overseer, must be above reproach, temperate, self-controlled, respectable and not dependent on wine. Well, his position of Authority comes direct from GAWD, so what do you think? I can totally understand RCSproul wanting to protect his son, What I dont understand is his lack of faith in Gid dealing with his son. Perhaps church is part of the problem not part of any solution. 511 0 obj <> endobj 533 0 obj <>/Filter/FlateDecode/ID[<9723A9CD413C4B2C92544032644E85B0>]/Index[511 35]/Info 510 0 R/Length 100/Prev 987638/Root 512 0 R/Size 546/Type/XRef/W[1 2 1]>>stream Outpatient treatment is not a bad thing. I tried really hard to help and could not. Sounds like it would do you good. I forget who coined the phrase but its very appropriate here, Hurting people hurt people. I think we can do better though. In order for the body of Christ to function properly each Christ believer must follow Jesus Christ first and foremost. His daughter, Shannon, born with Lissencephaly,died in October, 2014 at the age of 15. She and I part theological company. We are called in the Bible to many other things, including loving one another, bearing each others burdens, than simply kicking people out who arent like us. Velour wrote: So very Dark Ages. I am thankful for support, growth and change. According to Spinderella, Sproulhas allegedly been drunkdriving with his kids for years. Even if you arent an addict, you can start to build a tolerance if you drink consistently. This does not give any of us an excuse to walk in disobedience to the Lord as he has.. She needed that love. Prison might have done Sproul some good. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). The record of his life, the record he created and boasted about in his own sermons and publications, the record he established boozing it up in front of his church members, proves that RC Sproul Jr has been abusing the booze for many many years prior to his personal family tragedies. I respectfully disagree. But I dont think Sproul 2s substance abuse (he is an adult) disqualifies his father from serving in the clergy. Ive seen the terrible impacts of alcohol abuse in my family, beginning with just a beer at the picnic to full-fledged alcoholism with many consequences. Very well stated. and me: I wish to God I had not had to learn what I have about addictions. Why not? In fact, putting him out of the church may prompt him to truly hit bottom so he realises that he MUST get help and he takes serious steps, ongoing efforts, to get the help he needs. The state does not usually come up with the funds for treatment. Barbara made the comment to H.U.G. One that would intervene when a pastor went this rogue? Share Background Report Overview of Vesta Voorhis Sproul Lives in: Sanford, Florida Phone: View phone number Age: 84 Gender: Female Is it not those inside the church[a] whom you are to judge? Their denial is just a problematic as the person who is the problem drinker. As I (Deb) have shared before with our TWW readers, when I was just 12 years old, I was in a vehicle that was struck by a drunk driver. Thanks ever so much.". So, does Dr. Sproul consider alcohol to be a gift from the Lord? and fails to get the help he needs . The same woman surgeon from before and a woman anesthesiologist and more women in scrubs packed into the OR than I thought necessary-but they have their reasons. Within a year or two hell petition the court to expunge the misdemeanor. We can do better. I even pointed out that books BY people who are MHPs themselves mention cautions to their readers to be careful when doctor shopping because, they say, some MHPs are inept or charlatans. Im not entirely sure why its considered relevant by Velour in talking to Barbara about RC Jr., though. That is an important element here. However reading your narrative (and others) has given me much to think about. In the end, people hurt. He fell drunk on the floor in his home. We went over this last night. Do people who have alcoholism or other issues get passes from rules and standards that apply to everyone else? I know plenty of cold sober people who embrace patriarchy. I guess I put my question badly, for I wasnt asking if your feelings would change based on the identity of the person, but rather the nature of what that person lives and teaches and imposes on others. But we do know what RC Sproul teaches, and it is very damaging. To paint her as saying she is against treatment when she has said no such thing is not right. I speak at CR on behalf of educating, as well as other community organizations supporting families such as AA. I will say this if this was just a pew sitter he would have been gone years ago tossed on the trash heap. Amen! Would love to see some stats on that. For a while he literally slept out in the reeds by a river. I think that experience may be clouding your reading here. Some denominations have a structure under which an alcoholic pastor is removed and required to enter a program to address medical, psychological, and spiritual issues. I was very happy to see him. Like RC2, he drove around drunk with our grandkids in the car. I do not support enabling R.C. Today that little churchis her home church. I fully believe that, if hes agreeable to treatment, that down the road that he should be willing to make both private amends to the people he harmed and public amends at churches where he caused harm. I am a broken, wounded woman, who happens to have different people in my life who cut, starve, purge, overeat, get drunk, medicate with R/X drugs, smoke pot, work themselves ragged, overspend, in hope to silence the agony of depression, intense anxiety, raging self-contempt, hopeless despair, excruciating shame, and (false) guilt. Sproul Jr. should NOT be enabled in keeping his job and that he should face consequences (i.e. The purpose of Drug court is for those charged w felonies to be submersed in a rehab program for 1-1.5yrs and graduate with the Judge being the one sharing that persons story and how he/she has been redeem and will acclimate as a reformed person in society- its a big deal. Caused the police to go on chases all over our parish, physically attacked police officers, lied to and about police officers. The court has set a trial date of June 6, 2017. lots of contempt in them there words .. what is the story behind them? The church can also play an important role, and probably has the financial resources, to get Sproul 2 into a treatment program and to come alongside his children and second wife and get them help too. Barbara said that H.U.G. Changed lives. A scripture in James 1 speaks of the far-greater responsibility church leaders/teachers hold than believers who are not in leadership. OK, well, Im not sure if I am in agreement with that view or not. The church as the playground of sinful social behaviors that are demonstrably harmful to others? Yet while Scripture condemns drunkenness, it nowhere says that consuming strong drink is in itself evil. I think its valid to point out that both these men were defrocked by their churches, and that we should be concerned about what they subsequently say and do in Jesuss name. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). His drunkenness just by itself disqualified RC2 from being a leader. @Velour, now Im getting your Dark Ages polemic. I needed that sort of help. Sproul, Jr., has done harm to many, including his own children. or a drunkard, [substance abuse] I will NEVER get over the fact that a drunk driver took away my friends parents in a split second when she was just 13. Sure, those consequences may be really really hard. By the way, I am agnostic on the topic of if an alcoholic should be kicked out of church or not. Talk about a great way of destroying the faith of children! Sproul Jr.s excommunication. My specific concern about Barbaras comment, and others like it, is thats NOT how substance abusers are supposed to be handled, or for that matter their families. What is that about? Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. Sproul was converted. But at the age of 15, R.C. Had therapy and continues to do so. Having been raised in a highly abusive alcoholic home (My mom) it sickens me sometimes to read about the love and compassion we should have for the addicted.And for the we are all just sinners crowd your ignorance is truly sickening. During that time, I would have a half glass of wine each evening which dulled the discomfort. I am not the least bit surprised by this [RC JR using an adultery site] as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. I saw several psychologists and psychiatrists in person over years, and none of them diagnosed me properly, and so were unable to help me. Well, I am diabetic (Type 1, specifically) and I do take insulin. My mother was codependent in part because her father used to abuser her and her mother, and she raised me to have codependent behaviors, which left me vulnerable to being exploited or abused by other people. At no time did I say that R.C. I havent seen anyone here, including the people you keep belittling, say that a church shouldnt even try to get professional help for an alcoholic member, just the opposite. If RC Sproul 2 eventually gets clean and sober and makes amends, with the help of a recovery sponsor who mentors him, I am sure that he will have a lot of wreckage to clean up at his former churches. How will the church ever be helpful in getting people help if the answer is to just avoid them and to cherry-pick Scripture verses to justify your own lack of love? I am sorry that you do not feel that you got any good help for your situation. That is the picture Im getting from those of you who have kept up to speed on RC Jr for a long time. I said, as you know, that he should lose his job. I think the way these churches do it IS called accountability groups where people are urged to confess everything to the group and Im not sure what happens next . On the way, we were hit head-on by a drunk driver. Much more is known about getting people treatment and about the nature of addictions. On My Shelf The Gospel Coalition and Hubworthy Join Forces to Sell, Sell, Sell Books, This Wikipedia article covers things like the Ashley Madison. Please read and then perhaps you will be able to respond according to what I ACTUALLY said. Thanks ever so much. All together they give the whole picture of how church leaders are supposed to deal with this type of situation. I have no idea why it quoted it twice and there was a glitch attributing Barbaras quote to you. RC Sproul Sr-time to protect those grandchildren. That is a pretty remarkable journey that you have had and I applaud you. 1, Beverly, passed away at 10:05 PM Wednesday, February 1, 2006 in the Ruby Memorial Hospital in Morgantown. Hyper-controlling, hyper-patriarchy, legalism. You and I dont have the compulsion to drink, so its easy for us to say just dont drink. But I know of many people including Christians who have fought that battle (alcoholism) mostly in secret. 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